It's okay, I read the comment notification in my email.
And your logic does fail. I'm not trying to be belligerent. I've shown you the gap. You have yet to fill it in for me. Your explanation requires us to invent steps that don't exist if we don't invent them. It's a violation of Occam's Razor.
First, "different calculations, schmifferent schmalculations". If a Warlord inspires you, you use one healing surge and regain your surge value + xd6, whereas if you use your second wind you use one healing surge and regain your surge value, period. Other things that involve healing surges or invoke the surge value without using one add different modifiers.
It's the concept of "surge value" that they share among each other, and that's nothing more than a base amount, said amount being "25% of your HP". What I am saying and what you are ignoring is the fact that all these healing methods use that same base is a matter of the consistency of mechanical design that is no different than the same consistency which means that at-will spells have base damage values that are equivalent to ordinary weapons.
2d4 is 2d4. 25% of HP is 25% of HP.
You want to ascribe in-world significance to the one pattern but not the other. I don't find that logical.
And if we're going to assume that Cure Light Wounds replenishes a healing surge and then takes it away, why not assume it inflicts 20 damage and heals [healing surge value +20] in the same moment? The answer is that we don't need to add that extra step in to account for what's happening so there's no reason to assume it's happening and in fact we'd look kind of cross-eyed at anyone who suggested it was happening.
A lost healing surge is the mechanical indication of "actual damage", accumulated fatigue and injury that lasts after the immediate shock and pain of combat. If one method of healing actually uses healing surges (subtracting one from your stock) and the other simply uses it as an already existing benchmark for how much HP you get back, I'd call that fact significant. It means they aren't doing the same thing mechanically, which means it's not likely they're doing the same thing in-character, and since the thing that a healing surge use does that a cure light wounds doesn't do is the thing that the system uses to represent lasting damage, I don't see how it's logical to conclude that the CLW is behaving the way you would describe it.
That part that's bolded isn't bolded for shouting; it's bolded because it's the crux of the matter. The rest... talk about what is or isn't the same calculation... I think it lends weight to my side, but that's the core of the argument: they do two different things, and the thing they do different involves the game's value for "the toll your body has taken".
At the end of the day, this is a matter of flavor/fluff rather than mechanics and you're welcome to play it your way if it ever comes up. But divine, miraculous, supernatural, or magical healing being actually divine, miraculous, supernatural, or magical isn't some D&D trope that doesn't exist outside of D&D-influenced fantasy. Jesus did not say, "Lazarus, come forth... and shake it off! Me Christ, it's just a flesh wound!"
I mean, I could probably think of works of near-fantasy/low-fantasy I've read where "divine" healing turned out to be really effective psychosomatic stuff, but this game actually has stats for deities. When it says that a Cleric's abilities work through divine power, I think we can take them at their word. And this gets back to why I was talking about magic missiles and falchions... you ask why it's so important that they work differently in-character. It's the same reason that magic missiles and falchions work differently in-character even though they both employ the same mechanics (roll dice, add modifier, subtract total from HP): one is a mundane martial implement and one is an arcane spell.
Edit:
Actually, I'm going to amend it... the real crux of it is, you can play it however you want. I stand firm that your way makes absolutely no sense to me, but it doesn't have to.
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ninetydegrees
no subject
on 2009-07-22 07:12 am (UTC)And your logic does fail. I'm not trying to be belligerent. I've shown you the gap. You have yet to fill it in for me. Your explanation requires us to invent steps that don't exist if we don't invent them. It's a violation of Occam's Razor.
First, "different calculations, schmifferent schmalculations". If a Warlord inspires you, you use one healing surge and regain your surge value + xd6, whereas if you use your second wind you use one healing surge and regain your surge value, period. Other things that involve healing surges or invoke the surge value without using one add different modifiers.
It's the concept of "surge value" that they share among each other, and that's nothing more than a base amount, said amount being "25% of your HP". What I am saying and what you are ignoring is the fact that all these healing methods use that same base is a matter of the consistency of mechanical design that is no different than the same consistency which means that at-will spells have base damage values that are equivalent to ordinary weapons.
2d4 is 2d4. 25% of HP is 25% of HP.
You want to ascribe in-world significance to the one pattern but not the other. I don't find that logical.
And if we're going to assume that Cure Light Wounds replenishes a healing surge and then takes it away, why not assume it inflicts 20 damage and heals [healing surge value +20] in the same moment? The answer is that we don't need to add that extra step in to account for what's happening so there's no reason to assume it's happening and in fact we'd look kind of cross-eyed at anyone who suggested it was happening.
A lost healing surge is the mechanical indication of "actual damage", accumulated fatigue and injury that lasts after the immediate shock and pain of combat. If one method of healing actually uses healing surges (subtracting one from your stock) and the other simply uses it as an already existing benchmark for how much HP you get back, I'd call that fact significant. It means they aren't doing the same thing mechanically, which means it's not likely they're doing the same thing in-character, and since the thing that a healing surge use does that a cure light wounds doesn't do is the thing that the system uses to represent lasting damage, I don't see how it's logical to conclude that the CLW is behaving the way you would describe it.
That part that's bolded isn't bolded for shouting; it's bolded because it's the crux of the matter. The rest... talk about what is or isn't the same calculation... I think it lends weight to my side, but that's the core of the argument: they do two different things, and the thing they do different involves the game's value for "the toll your body has taken".
At the end of the day, this is a matter of flavor/fluff rather than mechanics and you're welcome to play it your way if it ever comes up. But divine, miraculous, supernatural, or magical healing being actually divine, miraculous, supernatural, or magical isn't some D&D trope that doesn't exist outside of D&D-influenced fantasy. Jesus did not say, "Lazarus, come forth... and shake it off! Me Christ, it's just a flesh wound!"
I mean, I could probably think of works of near-fantasy/low-fantasy I've read where "divine" healing turned out to be really effective psychosomatic stuff, but this game actually has stats for deities. When it says that a Cleric's abilities work through divine power, I think we can take them at their word. And this gets back to why I was talking about magic missiles and falchions... you ask why it's so important that they work differently in-character. It's the same reason that magic missiles and falchions work differently in-character even though they both employ the same mechanics (roll dice, add modifier, subtract total from HP): one is a mundane martial implement and one is an arcane spell.
Edit:
Actually, I'm going to amend it... the real crux of it is, you can play it however you want. I stand firm that your way makes absolutely no sense to me, but it doesn't have to.