(no subject)

[alexandraerin]

I didn't get Tales of MU updated for Saturday until just a few minutes ago. My friends just got copies of D&D 4th edition and abducted me at d20-point for an all-day-and-night gaming session. My first impressions of the new version:

1) They're trying really hard to capture the MMORPG market.
2) Combat plays fast and snappy (assuming you've got your character's moves down) but with infinite variety, rules are less than robust in other areas.
3) As with any roleplaying game, how fun it is depends on the players and a flexible DM.

This is probably the biggest example of a "pure product" release. There was nothing wrong with 3rd edition that 4th edition fixes, except that it was losing ground against World of Warcraft and not selling as many new copies as when it first came out.* The core rulebooks, apart from resembling MMORPG play in its mechanics, notably don't involve very many non-combat abilities or abilities that would require roleplaying/human judgment to "mechanic" (no animal companions/mounts/cohorts/thingies, no paladins falling, etc.), which makes me wonder what they've got in the pipeline after D&D Insider (which looks awesome) is up and running... both in terms of electronic adaptations, and supplement books that will no doubt add back in some of the more popular deleted features... and make more money for WotC.

*(Note that I'm not criticizing them for doing this. We've all got to eat.)

Comments

[renegadehero13.livejournal.com]

As suggested, might as well continue it here. Miracle I managed to remember my LJ password though, haven't used this thing in a long time.

Re-reading my comments, it seemed like a lot of my gripes were DM-related so it's subjectively bad when it probably shouldn't be. But as objectively as I can make it, it's pretty much what we've already agreed upon: pure product release, turning it more like a MMO so they can compete with an MMO, crossed with a miniatures game so they can sell a new line of miniatures (or sell a stock of older ones.)

The alignment system is one of the things I didn't really like them changing, it seems oversimplified and restrictive. Yes, you can expand on some of the descriptions they give you, but I saw it as if they intended to get rid of Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good and a bunch of neutrals.

I remember a first review of the game a while back saying that races would get more distinction, especially with stat points. (something having to do with distinguishing a dwarf's constitution as opposed to a human, and making it very clear by emphasizing on it as they level up.) I assumed it would mean stat bonuses upon leveling up would be influenced by race, but no, it doesn't seem like anything changed.

The loss of Bard, Druid and Monk is making a few people sad. Yes, they're probably going to include them in a second PHB. I don't know why they didn't include them in this one... wait, yes I do. It's so they can sell a second book next year. Though with the mechanics changing like they did, it's a bit harder to convert Bard and Druid to 4th edition, I think. Monk not so much, but I remember reading that monks weren't played too often in 3rd ed anyway. Maybe a simple phase out. We'll have to see.

Paragon paths aren't too bad... but epic paths? I don't like at all. Too restrictive. I don't remember each of them, but it seems to tell you "All kids grow up wishing they could be an epic archmage or fighter or wanderer." When I was making my character, I looked at the Epic paths and thought "I don't see this guy wanting to become any of these." Just seems like an idea that was good in theory, but bad in practice and left in anyway.

Powers are nifty, but my first impression was "These are Talents. From WoW." And after playing a bit, that impression is the same. There are too many though, like we said, a cheat-sheet is needed at higher levels.

Skills... good and bad. You can still pretty much do the same things as before; Thievery encompasses almost every rogue skill of importance, Perception is Listen/Search/Spot in one. The system gives a bit too much of a Jack of All Trades perspective to everyone. Use of almost every aspect of every skill untrained, with a +5 bonus if trained. But I liked my character who was unathletic or unacrobatic but for some reason could jump really high. Or my rogue who had no idea how to use traps, but had an uncanny knack for messing them up. It just seems to remove a lot of specialization, which in turn dulls the RP a bit.

My personal biggest gripe are the feats. Might be personal dislike because after hitting level 2 on my dual-wielding ranger I had no idea which feat I'd want for this level, much less every other level until paragon. But they just seem mostly uninspired.. for lack of a better word.

Mechanics aside.. I really didn't like the book itself. It just seems really bloated and possibly rushed (IIRC they got the release to coincide with DnD-Day.) 25 pages per class seems like a LOT especially considering how much (or how little) content there is in those pages. They probably could have fit more than 8 powers per page.

For all the criticism of the game I'm thinking of... it's not bad. Different is really the only word that comes to mind. I just find 3.5 less restrictive in the non-combat aspects, and I'll probably stick with it for now, or at least give more preference to 3.5 over 4e if I got the choice.

In the long run, the game has always been what you make of it. I just get the feeling that 4e is trying to impose a few guidelines on how you make it what you want.

Phew. That was longer than I thought it'd come out as.

[alexandraerin.livejournal.com]

I actually think I understand the alignment change.

It's really hard to find the fine points between Chaotic Good and Neutral Good. I mean, you can cite the official description all you want, but unless the Chaotic one is going "RAH RAH RAH CHAOS!" all the time or is a devoted anarchist, you could have a CG traveling with a NG forever and never have them reach a crossroads where their alignments become a problem.

[mindwright.livejournal.com]

Well, they definitely stole some ideas from the MMO's and from their own miniatures game. But they seem to be cherry picking, not just following fads. Yes, D&D is supposed to help sales of the D&D Miniatures game... in fact more minis are sold for D&D than for the miniatures game so that really makes a lot of sense.

The racial specialization is really through racial feats which enhance or add racially themed powers. We'll have the rest of the classes we're used to next year, but the power system kind of causes classes to use a lot of pages in the book.

I find it a little weird that you object to epic destinies because they are too rigid when one of the four epic destinies, Eternal Seeker, has versatility as its primary benefit. It is true that Archmage and Deadly Trickster are fairly specialized, but Demigod should work well for any character, and Eternal Seeker actually allows you to choose powers from any class list.

Power cards work really well in lieu of a cheat sheet, since you can turn them over to indicate when they've been used.

I personally like the skill changes, but I miss profession and craft skills. My current game allows you to pick a talent, profession or craft, and gives you a +5 if you are making an ability check related to the chosen specialty. When you write a module or adventure in 3.5, if you include a skill check it is very easy, especially at high levels, to set a DC that is impossible to make unless someone in the party specialized in that skill. The change to skills fixes that problem, a party with no one trained simply has a harder time with that obstacle.

Heroic tier feats are much weaker in 4th edition. Power choices are what really distinguish characters and feats are a little added bonus. Then again, you get more of them and when you look at the higher tiers and remember the retraining option they start to look more attractive.

There are a number of heroic tier feats that everyone can use. For example most characters should either take Quick Draw or Improved Initiative; you don't want both since the initiative bonus doesn't stack, but both are excellent feats. Skill Training and Skill Focus are solid choices. Durable, Toughness, Alertness, and Defensive Mobility will work for anyone. And of course you can upgrade your armor options or choose to dabble in multiclassing.

For your dual wielding Ranger you should definitely take Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, and Weapon Focus. Oh, and Lethal Hunter, Agile Hunter and Precise Hunter are all good if you qualify. So I think you should have enough options to keep you in feats for a few more levels.