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alexandraerinI keep finding people insisting that the demigod epic destiny's regeneration ability is too powerful and that the refusal of WotC to errata it is proof that they're arrogant and out of touch.
Okay, people... read that name: "demigod epic destiny". This is when your level 21 character (becomes/realizes they always were) a demigod. At level 26, they get a utility power that, once per day, gives them regeneration equal to their highest ability score for the remainder of the encounter. Not ability score modifier, but the raw ability score, which for an epic level character is going to easily be in the neighborhood of 26-30.
I can understand why they might look at that number and go "BUHWHU?" But there are epic level bosses that do 25 damage per round just for standing too close to them. I just flipped through the Monster Manual at random, stopping every time I found an epic monster, and none of them had damage low enough that they couldn't still present a credible threat. Even a level 22 thunderhawk thing can do 19 damage on an average at-will attack, +7 average damage if it's charging. 26 damage on a charge.
The regeneration would make it harder to kill a demigod... assuming that was the battle in which the demigod decided to pop this daily power... but it doesn't make it impossible.
Foes in the shallow end of the epic levels can easily inflict 20 points of damage on a hit. The 30th level character I have up in my character generator at the moment has 166 maximum HP and an Intelligence of 26... if she's bloodied, it'll take her four rounds to get back up to full, assuming she takes no more damage. This is overpowered? An ancient red dragon can make do 2d12+12 attacks against her every turn. One of those is likely to be enough to wipe out the regen. The other is gravy.
There's a level 24 rakshasa that can do three basic attacks a turn, and one of their attacks gets two attack rolls. And if they hit twice in one round the foe is dazed. I'd call that "overpowered", but it isn't... it's just about the right level of power for fighting a mid-epic level character, as the Demigod shows us.
Basically, by undoing one really good hit's worth of damage a turn, the regeneration works out to the equivalent of being hit slightly less often. It also gives the monsters an incentive to keep piling on attacks, unlike a power that just straight out boosts defenses... if you see that your attacks aren't effective any more you might back off, but if you see that the hero is healing damage almost as fast as one of your guys can dish it out, you pile on more guys.
I can understand why this power would seem unusually appealing to a person who plays the game in a very straightforward fashion, but it's far from out of balance with the other options available. In the same book (the core PHB), the Deadly Trickster has Epic Trick in the same slot. Each time you use it, you can pick one benefit: recover all HP and healing surges, or automatically save against all effects afflicting you, or recover all your encounter powers, or recover all daily powers except Epic Trick itself. That's huge. It could easily translate to more HP regained in a single encounter than the demigod's regen... it all depends on how long the battle lasts, from the time the power's invoked.
And compare it to the Archmage epic destiny's power, Shape Magic: regain one arcane power. One. It can be daily or it can be encounter. You recover one of them. It takes a standard action, whereas Epic Trick takes a minor action.
If we're assuming that each epic destiny's utility power is supposed to be balanced against the others' (and not looking at the classes as a whole... Archmages get extra use out of their daily powers to begin with via their features), it seems to me that Deadly Trickster's epic trick can trump both the Demigod's regen and the Archmage's shape magic. If the Demigod and the Deadly Trickster both trigger their epic utility powers to heal when they're almost dead, the Demigod is still almost dead but the Deadly Trickster is fresh. If the Archmage and the Deadly Trickster trigger their utility powers to regain powers when they're out, the Archmage gets one shot and the Deadly Trickster has several. And that's ignoring the versatility, the fact that the Deadly Trickster's power can be used for different things in different circumstances.
I keep saying that these 4E bashers are taking a very shallow approach to the material, and the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced it's true. I just read the Deadly Trickster's features so I could see if their other features suck, as that might explain why their awesome utility seems to be overlooked by the people who want Demigods nerfed.
At level 21, they get three d20 rerolls per day... usable on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, whatever. At level 24, they get to retain any encounter power or daily power and use it again if they roll an 18 or higher on the first attack roll with it. That's a flat 15% chance of reusing it. Even at 15%, that'll likely come into play at least once when they blow through their stack of powers... and it makes criticals something even more worth celebrating. At level 30, they can dictate that the DM rolls a 1, once per day.
I think I've found Pallas Snowblade's eventual epic destiny. Either that or Parable, which is essentially meta-awareness as an epic destiny.
What the Deadly Trickster is missing that many of the less mundane epic destinies... including Archmage and Demigod... have is an automatic once per day death cheat. Quite a few epic destinies, for their 24th level feature, have an ability that begins "once per day, when reduced to 0 HP" or "once per day, instead of dying"... the Archmage can separate spirit and body, one epic destiny has a self from another timeline come in and take up the fight, a Swordmage-only one has your spirit move into your sword and the sword fights on... if you win the fight, or don't lose so badly that sword and body are separated, the Swordmage can get back up.
The Demigod has the blandest version: Once per day, when you reach 0, your HPs reset back to your bloodied level (50%). What? You're a demigod. You don't have to pull off some amazing trick to cheat death. You just do it.
The Deadly Trickster is one of the epic destinies that doesn't have an automatic death-cheat, probably because the point of it is that you have all these nifty tools with which you can cheat death if you're clever in how you use them. But even without an automatic death cheat, it's hard to imagine anybody who's seriously looking at balance problems could look at the Demigod and Deadly Trickster side by side on the same page and go, "Well, the Demigod is clearly overpowered compared to this." The Demigod's advantages are straightforward, the Trickster's are a matter of giving you leverage.
And again I'll point out that when you reach level 30, the game is effectively over and you've won. All epic level characters are essentially gods by that point, and can only be really threatened by godlike forces. And yet I swear I've read three different versions of different people arguing that if an epic level demigod can only really be beaten by demon lords, ancient dragons, archdemons, and aspects of deities then it means something is wrong with the system.
Huzuwhu? Doesn't that sound like the way it should be?
Okay, that's enough forum-lurking and D&D crunching. I've got a lot of stuff to finish tonight. On to the writening.
Okay, people... read that name: "demigod epic destiny". This is when your level 21 character (becomes/realizes they always were) a demigod. At level 26, they get a utility power that, once per day, gives them regeneration equal to their highest ability score for the remainder of the encounter. Not ability score modifier, but the raw ability score, which for an epic level character is going to easily be in the neighborhood of 26-30.
I can understand why they might look at that number and go "BUHWHU?" But there are epic level bosses that do 25 damage per round just for standing too close to them. I just flipped through the Monster Manual at random, stopping every time I found an epic monster, and none of them had damage low enough that they couldn't still present a credible threat. Even a level 22 thunderhawk thing can do 19 damage on an average at-will attack, +7 average damage if it's charging. 26 damage on a charge.
The regeneration would make it harder to kill a demigod... assuming that was the battle in which the demigod decided to pop this daily power... but it doesn't make it impossible.
Foes in the shallow end of the epic levels can easily inflict 20 points of damage on a hit. The 30th level character I have up in my character generator at the moment has 166 maximum HP and an Intelligence of 26... if she's bloodied, it'll take her four rounds to get back up to full, assuming she takes no more damage. This is overpowered? An ancient red dragon can make do 2d12+12 attacks against her every turn. One of those is likely to be enough to wipe out the regen. The other is gravy.
There's a level 24 rakshasa that can do three basic attacks a turn, and one of their attacks gets two attack rolls. And if they hit twice in one round the foe is dazed. I'd call that "overpowered", but it isn't... it's just about the right level of power for fighting a mid-epic level character, as the Demigod shows us.
Basically, by undoing one really good hit's worth of damage a turn, the regeneration works out to the equivalent of being hit slightly less often. It also gives the monsters an incentive to keep piling on attacks, unlike a power that just straight out boosts defenses... if you see that your attacks aren't effective any more you might back off, but if you see that the hero is healing damage almost as fast as one of your guys can dish it out, you pile on more guys.
I can understand why this power would seem unusually appealing to a person who plays the game in a very straightforward fashion, but it's far from out of balance with the other options available. In the same book (the core PHB), the Deadly Trickster has Epic Trick in the same slot. Each time you use it, you can pick one benefit: recover all HP and healing surges, or automatically save against all effects afflicting you, or recover all your encounter powers, or recover all daily powers except Epic Trick itself. That's huge. It could easily translate to more HP regained in a single encounter than the demigod's regen... it all depends on how long the battle lasts, from the time the power's invoked.
And compare it to the Archmage epic destiny's power, Shape Magic: regain one arcane power. One. It can be daily or it can be encounter. You recover one of them. It takes a standard action, whereas Epic Trick takes a minor action.
If we're assuming that each epic destiny's utility power is supposed to be balanced against the others' (and not looking at the classes as a whole... Archmages get extra use out of their daily powers to begin with via their features), it seems to me that Deadly Trickster's epic trick can trump both the Demigod's regen and the Archmage's shape magic. If the Demigod and the Deadly Trickster both trigger their epic utility powers to heal when they're almost dead, the Demigod is still almost dead but the Deadly Trickster is fresh. If the Archmage and the Deadly Trickster trigger their utility powers to regain powers when they're out, the Archmage gets one shot and the Deadly Trickster has several. And that's ignoring the versatility, the fact that the Deadly Trickster's power can be used for different things in different circumstances.
I keep saying that these 4E bashers are taking a very shallow approach to the material, and the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced it's true. I just read the Deadly Trickster's features so I could see if their other features suck, as that might explain why their awesome utility seems to be overlooked by the people who want Demigods nerfed.
At level 21, they get three d20 rerolls per day... usable on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, whatever. At level 24, they get to retain any encounter power or daily power and use it again if they roll an 18 or higher on the first attack roll with it. That's a flat 15% chance of reusing it. Even at 15%, that'll likely come into play at least once when they blow through their stack of powers... and it makes criticals something even more worth celebrating. At level 30, they can dictate that the DM rolls a 1, once per day.
I think I've found Pallas Snowblade's eventual epic destiny. Either that or Parable, which is essentially meta-awareness as an epic destiny.
What the Deadly Trickster is missing that many of the less mundane epic destinies... including Archmage and Demigod... have is an automatic once per day death cheat. Quite a few epic destinies, for their 24th level feature, have an ability that begins "once per day, when reduced to 0 HP" or "once per day, instead of dying"... the Archmage can separate spirit and body, one epic destiny has a self from another timeline come in and take up the fight, a Swordmage-only one has your spirit move into your sword and the sword fights on... if you win the fight, or don't lose so badly that sword and body are separated, the Swordmage can get back up.
The Demigod has the blandest version: Once per day, when you reach 0, your HPs reset back to your bloodied level (50%). What? You're a demigod. You don't have to pull off some amazing trick to cheat death. You just do it.
The Deadly Trickster is one of the epic destinies that doesn't have an automatic death-cheat, probably because the point of it is that you have all these nifty tools with which you can cheat death if you're clever in how you use them. But even without an automatic death cheat, it's hard to imagine anybody who's seriously looking at balance problems could look at the Demigod and Deadly Trickster side by side on the same page and go, "Well, the Demigod is clearly overpowered compared to this." The Demigod's advantages are straightforward, the Trickster's are a matter of giving you leverage.
And again I'll point out that when you reach level 30, the game is effectively over and you've won. All epic level characters are essentially gods by that point, and can only be really threatened by godlike forces. And yet I swear I've read three different versions of different people arguing that if an epic level demigod can only really be beaten by demon lords, ancient dragons, archdemons, and aspects of deities then it means something is wrong with the system.
Huzuwhu? Doesn't that sound like the way it should be?
Okay, that's enough forum-lurking and D&D crunching. I've got a lot of stuff to finish tonight. On to the writening.
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no subject
on 2009-07-22 07:34 am (UTC)Of course, The Primal Order is good for other things too, and I have to wonder what a Primal Order translation to D&D 4 would look like.
(I can't find one on the net, but my Google-Fu isn't very good.)
no subject
on 2009-07-22 07:42 pm (UTC)If you ever die and are not resurrected within 12 hours, you come back. Twenty four hours after your death, you're back. Full equipment, full health, no outside interference. You just woke up and walked back. There is no intervention, there is no 'unless' clause.
You. Cannot. Die.
So what was that about demigod regeneration again?
no subject
on 2009-07-22 09:13 pm (UTC)First, they'd point out that you still die, you're just getting a free "rez", which is different because it means you've lost the combat and 4E is nothing but combat and if you act like the character matters outside of combat then you're failing to divorce mechanics from flavor and we should all just pretend to have a magical tea party.
Second, they'd point out that this is trumped by the Beastlord ranger epic destiny, which can shunt damage from itself to its beast as long as the ranger can see it and which at level 30 both become unkillable as long as either the ranger or the beast still has HP, so logically all you have to do is cut the head off your beast companion and carry it around so you can always see it and you're completely immortal.
Third, point out that both the Dark Wanderer and the Beastlord and other epic destinies with cool level 30 powers only help prove that the game is broken once you hit the end of the experience chart.
(Broken here having the meaning of "over", apparently.)